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 Save the World- A Gandhian Way (by Manu Tandon)


Politics

By manu (India), Section United States of America
Posted on Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 12:45:22 AM PST

Other events which have changed the face of our global civilization are Religious xenophobia, Economic disparity and Regionalistic hegemony which have fueled in disturbances across the globe. We need to reform our civilization to save this world. A ray of hope slides in through "Gandhianism".

Twentieth century has been the most fascinating and eventful centuries of all times, the hundred years has changed the world geographically, scientifically and politically. We the citizen of this global village feel proud of the achievements civilization has seen in last century. But if I see the last century in retrospective of humanity and social development, I feel miserable and some time pray if I can wipe out the twentieth century from the pages of history. "Every revolution bring it self the seeds of its own destruction", so did twentieth century. It has sowed the seed for the death of our civilization and our beloved Mother Earth. We have gifted the death of more than 188 million people by War and Oppression in last century (Matthew White, Historical Atlas of the Twentieth Century, 2001) which is equivalent (in population terms) to wiping out Britishers, Australian, Canadians, French and New Yorkers from our globe. Can we imagine our globe without them- "No we cannot".

Other events which have changed the face of our global civilization are Religious xenophobia, Economic disparity and Regionalistic hegemony which have fueled in disturbances across the globe. We need to reform our civilization to save this world. A ray of hope slides in through "Gandhianism".

One of the most significant personalities of the last century was indeed Mohan Das Karamchand Gandhi, born on 2nd October 1869 at Porbandar, on the western coast of India. Educated in England and Barrister by profession became the epitome of Indian struggle for Independence. He also played a critical role in the freedom struggle of South Africa (he went to South Africa to Practice Law), Nelson Mandela wrote in one of his articles in TIME- "The Gandhian influence dominated freedom struggles on African continent upto 1960s because of the power it generated and the unity it forged among the apparently powerless. Non Violence was the official stance of all major African coalitions, and the South African A.N.C remained implacably opposed to violence for most of its existence". Gandhiji gave this world new form of struggle, based on non violence and mutual respect. Gandhiji's teachings can provide realistic tools for addressing the multi-dimensional challenges faced by the world today. Three sects of his philosophy namely Ahimsa (Non Violence), Sarvoday (Welfare for all) and Satyagrah (Seeking truth) can help us in reforming our the civilization.

Gandhiji said "Nonviolence is the law of the human race and is infinitely greater than and superior to brute force."  Today it's a dire need of time to characterize Non violence a part of our social system. It's very tough for any society to embrace it as its results are slow but it's long lasting. We are living in an era of low patience, thus Non Violence sounds inconvenient and passé. With the fear of global terrorism and nuclear & contemporary wars, global federation should adopt non violence as its charter for international relations and essence for conflict resolution. Gandhiji said "Individuals or nations who would practice nonviolence must be prepared to sacrifice (nations to last man) their all except honour."   Non-violence is not a weapon of the weak, but of the strong and fearless. We have seen improvement in India Pakistan relationship through peaceful efforts from both the countries for last five years. It's a new beginning of an era of mutual love and respect. The perennial problem is slowing melting and giving peace an opportunity in Kashmir Valley. Conflicts in critical zones like Central Asia, Eastern Europe & South Asia can be diluted through the policy of Non Violence. Lets give love an opportunity to live in our lives.  
 Second Tenet is Sarvoday- Welfare for all, this concept reiterate for self-help, rural & village development and self sustainable economic development. This theory is the classic tools for eradicating economic disparities. Gandhi coined the term Sarvoday in 1908 with a vision and aspiration of a society with no disparity of any kind. Don't confuse it with Communism or Socialism. Both Communism and Socialism could be means for Sarvoday but definitely not the ends. Today we live in a world where some of us don't have food to eat. Sub-Saharan Africa has seen thousands perish because of malnutrition. Every hour children die of it, so is the case with many developing countries. We have seen short term plans and donations from rich countries but collectively we have failed to support them to create a sustainable economic model of self sufficiency for last half a decade. Sarvoday helps in crafting one with the objective of economic and social development and improvement of a community as a whole. In capitalism the flow of economic prosperity and development is down wards, the economic development of many is dependable upon few. It gives birth to discrimination and oppression, thus creating a vacuum between have and have not. But in Sarvoday nation's economic development is driven by the masses, it's been characterize by Mass Production Vs. Production by the Masses.  Gandhi said "When production and consumption both become localized, the temptation to speed up production, indefinitely and at any price, disappears. All the endless difficulties and problems that jour present-day economic system presents, too, world then come to an end." If as a civilization we create a system of economic development through lowest strata of society and which has the essence of self dependence with the objective of sustainable growth, I am sure we cold contribute towards eliminating burgeoning Economic and Social disparity.

The last tenet is Satyagrah, Gandhi evolved this philosophy emphasizing on remaining firm on the Truth and resisting the Untruth actively but using only Non-violent means. Satyagraha is the most pragmatic and potent technique of conflict resolution and it is also the morally correct way of life. Satyagrah and its off-shoots, non-co-operation and civil disobedience & resistance in a non violent way, gives oppressor a reason to rethink about his act. The whole philosophy is based on realizing an oppressor about the meaning of existence and rights with creating an environment of mutual respect and love. All social movements across the globe should be based on Satyagrah, thus creating a society sans selfishness and violence. Satyagrah is ideally recommended as a charter for global & regional federations like UN, ASEAN, SAARC, EU & NATO where issues and conflict can be negotiated not by economic or military pressures but through Truth and mutual collaboration. It will help in diluting regional hegemony and would give world a chance for global equality.

Gandhi was shot dead on January 30th 1948, an end of a sage who died in a violent act for the mission of Non violence. I see Gandhi much more relevant today as he was fifty seven years back. Gandhi is an ideology, it's a ways of living and last it's a hope for new world without fear and hatred. Let us break the chain of political boundaries and religious chauvinism for a tomorrow of love.

About the Author: Manu Tandon is heading marketing for a large BPO company based out of California, US. He is MBA in marketing and has worked with large Multinationals in sales and marketing functions. He has interest in writing articles on issues in Politics and Business. He has been associated with social development programs.

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Display: Sort:
Gandhi was wrong (none / 0) (#1)
by progovac87 (USA) on Thu Nov 03, 2005 at 03:24:40 PM PST

It is clear that Gandhi was completely wrong about the superiority of a nonviolent struggle. Gandhi himself was assassinated and India currently is in a violent feud over the Kashmir region.

Violence is natural and should be embraced because it is a part of our history and humanity.

A violent struggle is the purest way to solve a dispute.


I disagree (none / 0) (#2)
by Charlie D (Netherlands) on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 02:00:31 PM PST

Indeed I don't think that there has been any point in civilized history that a state of total non-voilence has ever occured. If it isn't found in war it is found in crime or even in the domestic setting.

Just becouse Ghandi died at the hard of his enemies doesn't mean to me that he lost the battle. If I take a case from here in Holland where a right wing politition was murdered for his beliefs. His idea's lived on in tenfold after his assasination, even more so than when he was alive. And that is also the case for Ghandi, the proof is to be found in his followers to this day, even the ones that arefighting for his couse today in the Kashmir region.

I didn't have time to read the full article that this thread has to offer. I think if it is to be a succesfull thread it need to be a bit briefer to be honest.

But what I can make out by scanning over the text is that there are people who believe a non-voilent policy on world politics is pheasable and even superior to voilent policies. I agree in full that it would be superior but I don't think it will ever happen.

[ Parent ]

Evolution (none / 0) (#3)
by progovac87 (USA) on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 04:31:48 PM PST

I know you agree with evolution. You also should be aware that in the process of evolution the most successful at mating pass their genes to the new generation. The very fact that violence exists today suggests that it is an superior trait to nonviolent behavior in regards to sexual fitness.

So what is superior, something that nature has codified and improved over billion years of evolution or something that absolutely no organism has displayed before?


[ Parent ]

You utter nonsence (none / 0) (#4)
by Charlie D (Netherlands) on Mon Nov 07, 2005 at 12:25:03 PM PST

Well, as long as you make babies before you set out to be killed in battle you'll be fine.

Furthermore I think we have evolved a lot since we where monkies and have the tools at hand to manipulate our world. Maybe we are even intelligent enough to see that voilence is a terrible thing and it should be stopped. We are no longer sercome to the powers of nature because we are more powerfull than it these days.

I may be living in a pipedream to say that world peace is within our reach but I think it is a worse thought to have that we should stop trying. And definetely a person who claims that voilence besides that of selfe defence is a good thing is a mentaly disturbed person indeed.

[ Parent ]

wow (none / 0) (#5)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Nov 07, 2005 at 05:24:26 PM PST

I will ignore the hostile tone of that response.

Are you so different from a monkey? You both have to eat. You both want to procreate. You both have a brain and a heart.

In the end we are still evolving and violence is the tool that shapes the future direction of the species. Basically violence is the most efficient tool of evolution.

The dream of nonviolence is a utopian dream and is not superior. It will never occur because it is not superior.  


[ Parent ]

yes and no (none / 0) (#6)
by xmlles (USA) on Mon Nov 07, 2005 at 06:51:45 PM PST

If you subscribe to the notion that we are evolving toward something... that there is some, as yet unknown being that we will be eventually become, and we're not going to all become extinct, then you must ponder the thought that, at 5:29:45am on July 16, 1945, we evolved beyond violence. With the successful detonation of the first Atomic weapon, we, as a species, became capable of completely destroying the entire planet and everything on it in less than a second.
Thus, violence is now no longer an acceptable tool of evolution, as not even the fittest will survive. On the contrary, the only way to survive now is to figure out how to exist without violence.


[ Parent ]
humans? (none / 0) (#7)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Nov 07, 2005 at 09:40:08 PM PST

Humans indeed may become instinct (in a way I hope they do after I die) but evolution does not just cater to one species. The meteor may have killed the dinosaurs but it caused the rapid evolution of other species.

And no, I do not believe we are evolving to one thing. We will always evolve since perfection is unattainable and undesirable (it is boring).  


[ Parent ]

Idiots and Violence (none / 0) (#11)
by SD61 (USA) on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 02:51:00 PM PST


"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent."   Isaac Asimov

A violent struggle is the purest way to solve a dispute."    Some Idiot named Progrovac87

Then, as if this gem wasn't enough to demonstrate Progovac87's ridiculous logic, he responds to the next comment with:

"I will ignore the hostile tone of that response."

What??????   I thought you just said that  violence is "the purest way to solve a dispute."  Why would you ignore such a pure response to your idiocy?  Hypocrisy, maybe?  Or just the fact that you are a weak, chickenhearted dweeb?

[ Parent ]

You are amusing (none / 0) (#12)
by progovac87 (USA) on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 03:35:45 PM PST

There is a difference between the words `hostility' and `violence.' I should also point out that I recommended the use of violence to solve `disputes', while on this forum we were merely exchanging ideas (at least I do not call that a dispute).

Violence is a natural phoneme, and violence or violent events have been the sole driving factor behind evolution. Nature always chooses the path of least resistance and therefore that path is the most efficient and simplest solution (i.e. the best path).

I do not understand anger to my views that would lead a grown man to childish name calling (idiot, dweeb).

Also I think Nature is a more reliable source to quote then a science fiction writer.


[ Parent ]

"phoneme" (none / 0) (#13)
by progovac87 (USA) on Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 04:32:58 PM PST

Was supposed to be "Phenomena"  

[ Parent ]
darn (none / 0) (#15)
by Rokkitsci (USA) on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 09:20:46 AM PST

I thought "phenome" was French.

lol

[ Parent ]

logic (none / 0) (#14)
by Rokkitsci (USA) on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 07:00:29 AM PST

When one is attacking another's logic, one is obligated to do so logically. Quoting an author of fictional novels is not even a valid fact; it is certainly not a rebuttal of a logical statement.

To refute the logic of another, one has to produce some logical statement of one's own. Even if you quoted the words of some other logician, it would not be a rebuttal unless you frame it in the context of the original statement.

This is a forum for the exchange of ideas. The proper response to those who you think are presenting ridiculous ideas is to ignore them (which I try to do with not perfect success. I sometimes just offer a ROFLMAO comment.)

I do attack with as much venom as I can muster those public officials and national organizations that I think are truly ridiculous, and harmful to my concept of what America is supposed to be. I pull no punches there, but I treat with respect those who defend the ones I attack - as long as they are respectful.

What I like about this forum is the almost universal respect that those with differing political views display in their debate.

I don't like words like dweeb being directed at others here.

Play nice.

[ Parent ]

Evolution (none / 0) (#23)
by you look like a nail (Canada) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 09:10:13 AM PST

Evolution is neither a directed nor a moral force.  It does not produce 'better' solutions and it is wrong to apply value judgments to its effects.  Evolution is a blind process which happens to generally reward changes which improve survivability.  

Sharks are honed by evolution to a superlative level of predatory capability, but it would be wrong to suggest that a shark is superior to any other animal.  It is merely well shaped to survive in the niche in which it has found itself.  This does not make it intrinsically better or worse than any other.

Anyway, applying arguments of evolution to thinking creatures doesn't work terribly well.  As soon as we gained the ability to reason we broke the pattern of evolution; we gained the ability to predict and anticipate and to remember and learn from experience, and to communicate these advances to successive generations.  We have the ability to actively shape our own evolution and we have the ability to defy the consequences of evolution if we so desire.  If we make war, it can only be because we have not made the effort to live in peace.

-- Your Reality Check is in the mail.
[ Parent ]

evolution (none / 0) (#25)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 04:06:48 PM PST

I already defined the best path as the most efficient path. Nature (I am theorizing here) always takes the path of least resistance (the most efficient path).

Also I caution you to conclude that the human species is above evolution, this is beyond hubris.    


[ Parent ]

Evolution (none / 0) (#29)
by you look like a nail (Canada) on Tue Dec 06, 2005 at 08:42:46 AM PST

I already defined the best path as the most efficient path. Nature (I am theorizing here) always takes the path of least resistance (the most efficient path).

When dealing with evolution you must be careful not to anthropomorphize the process.  Evolution is not directed, it does not have a pattern or a philosophy and it does not have a goal.  Evolution is a process of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.  There are always going to be avenues of possible genetic variation that are never explored simply due to the essentially random nature of that variation and the messy, unpredictable and chaotic way that variations are killed off (generally due to relative unsuitability, but sometimes just because it worked out that way).  

Evolution will not give you the most efficient path; it will tend to give you the best of the variations which occur, where best can be about efficiency, or reliability, or any one of a hundred other qualifiers depending on what pressures are most relevant to the species and niche in question.

Also I caution you to conclude that the human species is above evolution, this is beyond hubris.

This is unavoidable.  We can observe and predict the process of evolution and thus we can control or avoid it if we are willing to do so.  There is an ethical dimension to the notion that we can do so, but once we understand evolution, we are forced into the position of making decisions about how it will affect us, since even the position of not getting involved and letting it happen is now a conscious decision.

-- Your Reality Check is in the mail.
[ Parent ]

Free will and playing games (none / 0) (#8)
by apsmith (USA) on Fri Nov 11, 2005 at 12:08:27 AM PST

Some of us believe we have conscience and reason for a purpose...

In any case, "violent struggle" is not at all the best way to solve things in the long run, even while it may provide short-term comfort. In game theory studies, entities that interact frequently benefit far more from cooperation than from conflict, even when conflict brings immediate rewards to the victor. What that means is, the more we interact continually within a global economy, the more we have to lose in any conflict; I'm firmly convinced that eventually conflict will disappear. In fact I think we've already reached a point where direct armed conflict between major powers is not going to happen unless some prize of truly enormous proportions (perhaps the last of the world's oil) forces it on us. And I hope that won't be necessary.

Anyway, evolution by natural selection certainly doesn't imply pure competition and conflict; cooperative patterns have evolved all over the place, from social organizations to symbiosis.

[ Parent ]

game theory (none / 0) (#9)
by progovac87 (USA) on Fri Nov 11, 2005 at 04:20:49 PM PST

The scenario in game theory that you are perhaps alluding to has to do with price fixing and Oligopolies.

Before I begin I just want to state that this is a bizarre example to further your point.

The Oligopolies have an incentive to cooperate because that would allow them to set the market price and make economic profit. Also they have an incentive to cheat since in the short run they would generate a lot of economic profit. Of coarse if one starts to cheat then all will eventually cheat. By competing the market price will eventually equal their average total cost creating zero economic profit.

Now this is where you leave off and state cooperation is better in the long run. You failed to mention that society is better off by them not cooperating and so your example as bizarre as it is still does disprove my thesis.

More interestingly you stated real life examples of cooperation (symbiosis).

[ Parent ]

violent conflict is inferior to non-violent (none / 0) (#16)
by kwsmith (USA) on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 04:48:46 PM PST

I would argue that the only reason the human race evolved is that we developed the ability to interact and compete non-violently amongst ourselves and other species.  If everyone was pre-disposed to violence as the first reaction to a conflict, we would have killed each other off thousand of years ago.  Sadly, that evolutionary trait is less pronounced in some humans than others who do resort to violence as a first reaction, but it's a minority of the population.  As one example, notice how urban American gangs mostly kill each other.  If everyone had the same pre-disposition we'd all be dead, but most of us have developed other ways to live and here we are, "fighting" each other on this forum instead of shooting at each other.

Subsequentally, it should naturally follow that non-violent peoples will thrive and the violent will kill each other off, but technology knocked that evolutionary train right off the tracks by giving the violent the means to kill everybody.

What that means is, the more we interact continually within a global economy, the more we have to lose in any conflict; I'm firmly convinced that eventually conflict will disappear. In fact I think we've already reached a point where direct armed conflict between major powers is not going to happen unless some prize of truly enormous proportions (perhaps the last of the world's oil) forces it on us. And I hope that won't be necessary.

I'm glad you brought that up.  Many people bemoan how "our" jobs are being offshored to communist China, enabling them to soon become a military superpower.  Propping up our economy makes us more reliant on China but the inverse is also true - China is also more reliant on us which makes a large scale conflict between us increasingly less likely.  The more reliant different countries, cultures, and economies become on each other, the less likely they are to enter into violent conflicts.

IOW, the globalized economy makes us collectively wealthier while making us less likely to kill each other.  That's progress, or as some might call it, evolution.

Long term though, I'm not so sure about.  You brought up the last drop of oil but let me add another factor - the environment.  Let's say some country in the future finds a way to further itself but threatens to destroy a common resource like the air we all breathe.  It's not any harder to imagine an "environmental war" than it is to imagine an "oil war."  I suspect I'll see one in my lifetime.  Some people argue we're already there (Iraq).

[ Parent ]

environmental war? (none / 0) (#17)
by Rokkitsci (USA) on Sat Nov 19, 2005 at 07:39:55 PM PST

I have never thought of that source of conflict. It seems valid at first blush, but on further analysis, I don't see how a nation could rationalize making "progress" that would destroy the one resource we all rely on for our existance. They have to breath the same air as "we" do.

I could see some major conflict over exploitation of resources. For instance, a nation who doesn't care if they destroy the fisheries of the oceans might provoke a conflict. But I would see that as a regional conflict, not one that would destroy the world.

[ Parent ]

Why? (none / 0) (#20)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 04:43:03 PM PST

Why is peace better then war? Why is saving a life better then destroying it? Your traditional morality is leading you to an automatic and popular reaction.

First by violence I do not mean Black gangs shooting themselves in the inner city. You can cooperate and use violence at the same time. That's the lesson of the modern evolution of "countries." A group of people cooperate to kill the other group of people (as modern history has proved and as recent events are still proving).

Going back to his (apsmith) bizarre example: the oligopolies cooperate and they eventually screw the buyers by doing so.

The world has only so many resources. As long as there is a finite set of resources then humans (any species) will engage in violence. Violence is competition; it is nature's version of Capitalism.

Why is saving a life better then destroying one? The effect is the same. By removing a human being you allow a certain set of resources to be allocated to someone in the future (you are in a way saving a humans life in the future). By saving one life now you are preventing one human to ever live since those resources will be used up.

That's why violence is superior; it eliminates the inept from using the finite resources and allows the able person to do so.    


[ Parent ]

Ghandhi is relevant (none / 0) (#10)
by Machi (Canada) on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 03:11:43 PM PST

Peaceful resistance! I don't believe there is a stronger act but of course these days those who chose to resist have to be more cunning.
They must be armed with the knowledge of communication, marketing, and spin doctoring. I don't think there can be a "Ghandhi like revolution" without utilizing modern technology effectively.

There is the noble intent by most when protests or resistance occurs but the coverage on the mainstream media is not there except when there is violence by a few. Perhaps all a resistance movement needs is a good PR firm to capture the attention of the so called news media.
 

Aikido as Political Theory (none / 0) (#18)
by Drog (Canada) on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 12:00:30 PM PST

My old Aikido sensei wrote a very interesting essay years ago entitled "Aikido as Political Theory, which discusses the practice of aikido as a metaphor and theory of political interaction. I found it quite interesting and this seems like a good time to share it.

From near the end:


On this level, the aikido of Ueshiba invites comparison with Gandhi's concept of Satyagraha-truth force-that drove the British out of India. Ueshiba's teaching complements Gandhi's nicely, and perhaps advances somewhat on Gandhian tactics. It demands less saintliness of the front line troops, and offers better guidance perhaps in handling stupid aggression. Where Gandhi asked his people to lie down on the railroad tracks, and to offer their heads to the policemen's clubs, aikido would have allowed them to take those clubs away while still refusing to break heads themselves. It would have compelled the British to exert naked power for every penny of tax and every local purchase. It would have organized a resistance that remained absolutely calm and centred under all conditions, as evasive as possible, and completely unco-operative except in assisting the occupying force to leave. It would have permitted, even encouraged, armed defence of personal space and property, but would have used weapons only for their deterrent and defensive value-understanding that force restrained, force withheld is much more powerful than force deployed and used.



Gandhi (none / 0) (#19)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Nov 21, 2005 at 04:23:53 PM PST

India and Pakistan were not "freed" due to Gandhi's actions. These territories (and many others that Britain and France held) were "liberated" shortly after WW2. Is it a consequence that Britain and France lost almost all of its imperial empire from the late 1940's to the late 1950's?  

WW2 freed these territories by making Britain and France second rate powers and at the same time making the USA the dominant world power and it was definitely not in America's interest to let Britain and France hold on to their empires.


[ Parent ]

You're all right! (none / 0) (#21)
by arrow (USA) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 12:20:25 AM PST

Well yes you're all right and I'll explain this to you perhaps.

[ Parent ]
You're all right! (none / 0) (#26)
by arrow (USA) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 06:27:22 PM PST

Well I can't find the original dialogue, but here is my comment explained:

Violence is natural to human society and there is crime and other forms of violence in every society.  It is part of evolution.  Someone on the board hoped the human race would die from his death.  Globalization tends to stop violence and a rare resource or pollution leads to violence.  My suggestion, to make the beings on earth last, is to modify the human race into something else.  Have them shed their own blood when they want change, and enforce it peacefully.  IN this way there can be violence without bloodshed of another, evolutingly, and we can solve our problems.  Creativity will allow us to play video games or some other technique to decide who sheds their own blood.  We could modify our bodies some other way to use their blood up in a productive way to get results.  No more secrecy about who sheds blood.

[ Parent ]

"enforce it" (none / 0) (#27)
by arrow (USA) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 06:29:01 PM PST

We don't need to enforce it except through agreement.

[ Parent ]
Britain and France (none / 0) (#22)
by you look like a nail (Canada) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 09:05:05 AM PST

France did not have the means to hold onto their empire.  Their experience in Indochina demonstrates that they would have desired to keep as much of it as they could, but no longer had the means.

For Britain it was a question both of morality and of expense.  The current of political and social thought in Britain was moving against colonialism and empire; those institutions were increasingly at odds with the sense of self and nationhood the British people had developed.   It was also tremendously expensive to maintain the empire, both in terms of money and in lives.  The empire had been the engine of the British economy but the world had changed and that really didn't apply any more.  Even absent the US, Britain would have dismantled the empire; the only question was the timing.  

Regardless, you do have a valid point regarding US motives.  A desire to see the old empires of Europe dismantled was much more of a driving force in US involvement than a lot of people seem to realize (not the only or even most significant motive, not by a long shot, but still, a motive).

-- Your Reality Check is in the mail.
[ Parent ]

France (none / 0) (#24)
by progovac87 (USA) on Mon Dec 05, 2005 at 03:57:25 PM PST

The Vietnamese guerillas that reclaimed Indochina from France were trained and equipped by the USA (ironically this same group became the Vietcong).

They probably would not be as organized and hence effective if it was not for the USA. France held onto Indochina for decades (I am not going to look that up) and lost it in about 10 years after WW2 (when the USA became the sole superpower).      


[ Parent ]

Vietnam (none / 0) (#28)
by you look like a nail (Canada) on Tue Dec 06, 2005 at 08:27:36 AM PST

The Vietnamese guerillas that reclaimed Indochina from France were trained and equipped by the USA (ironically this same group became the Vietcong).

Two problems with that assertion; first, Indochina wasn't unique.  France lost a lot of colonies following WW2, and the US had nothing to do with most of them.  Second, the Vietnamese campaign wasn't one which particularily required a great deal of material support, and there were plenty of people willing to offer what they needed.

France held onto Indochina for decades (I am not going to look that up) and lost it in about 10 years after WW2 (when the USA became the sole superpower).    

No worries, I'll look it up for you.  France actually lost Indochina to the Japanese in WW2, it was their efforts to re-establish control that were ultimately frustrated in the following decade.  So I'd say that it had much more to do with the Japanese than with the US.

-- Your Reality Check is in the mail.
[ Parent ]

Pit3 (none / 0) (#30)
by popy (Belarus) on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 01:27:19 AM PST

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